1 00:00:08,330 --> 00:00:05,269 welcome to tales from the rabbit hole 2 00:00:11,749 --> 00:00:08,340 I'm your host Nick West last week I had 3 00:00:14,690 --> 00:00:11,759 on someone who was very right-wing Joe 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:14,700 and I have to balance that out this week 5 00:00:20,029 --> 00:00:16,170 I'm having on someone who's more 6 00:00:23,630 --> 00:00:20,039 left-wing Jen senko is the director and 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:23,640 creator of the brainwashing of my dad a 8 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:26,490 documentary about her how her father was 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:29,550 affected by over consuming right-wing 10 00:00:34,549 --> 00:00:31,890 media there's an interesting history of 11 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:34,559 how right-wing media came to be in the 12 00:00:39,590 --> 00:00:38,190 state it is right now and it's just a 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:39,600 very interesting documentary I liked it 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:41,010 a lot but I recognize that it's not 15 00:00:45,350 --> 00:00:43,770 everybody's cup of tea I think people 16 00:00:49,029 --> 00:00:45,360 who are conservative may think that is 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:49,039 overly leftist in its approach and 18 00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:53,370 that's possibly a valid criticism it's a 19 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:54,960 very interesting documentary even if 20 00:00:59,689 --> 00:00:57,090 you're politically opposed to its 21 00:01:03,560 --> 00:00:59,699 message I recommend giving it a go but 22 00:01:06,980 --> 00:01:03,570 let's go and meet our guest all right so 23 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:06,990 my guest today is Jen Senko who is the 24 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:09,360 director of the documentary film the 25 00:01:14,030 --> 00:01:12,060 brainwashing of my dad which was 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:14,040 released in 2016 27 00:01:18,050 --> 00:01:16,530 I think UK you finish it in 2015 it was 28 00:01:21,380 --> 00:01:18,060 released in 2016 29 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:21,390 yeah finished actually in 2016 30 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:24,750 yeah it's it is 2015 and I am didi 31 00:01:31,940 --> 00:01:27,810 because we showed our work in progress 32 00:01:35,630 --> 00:01:31,950 at Michael our Traverse City in 2015 so 33 00:01:39,350 --> 00:01:35,640 that's how come I am TV had it as 2015 34 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:39,360 right yeah and I must say it is one of 35 00:01:46,130 --> 00:01:41,310 my favorite documentaries that I have 36 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:46,140 seen in my memory my wife and I watched 37 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:48,570 it together I think about a year ago and 38 00:01:53,630 --> 00:01:51,840 I just re-watched it again over the last 39 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:53,640 couple of days so I can make notes on it 40 00:01:58,340 --> 00:01:55,710 in preparation for this this interview 41 00:02:00,590 --> 00:01:58,350 so I've got several pages of notes that 42 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:00,600 I want to touch on a few of the points 43 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:03,960 here but first of all could you just 44 00:02:09,859 --> 00:02:07,250 tell it all briefly for people listening 45 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:09,869 what the basic premise of the film is 46 00:02:12,650 --> 00:02:12,030 the documentary is and and how it came 47 00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:12,660 about 48 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:18,460 mm-hmm okay well my growing up that my 49 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:24,220 father was a non-political very 50 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:29,230 open-minded Democrat and and very loving 51 00:02:37,590 --> 00:02:34,510 towards all people and one day when my 52 00:02:40,830 --> 00:02:37,600 family moved he suddenly had a long 53 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:40,840 commute to work and he started listening 54 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:45,430 to it was Bob Grant at the time who was 55 00:02:51,750 --> 00:02:47,770 called the father of conservative radio 56 00:02:57,030 --> 00:02:51,760 and he was like one of the prototypes of 57 00:02:59,010 --> 00:02:57,040 the you know bombastic radio host you 58 00:03:03,810 --> 00:02:59,020 know one of his lines was get off my 59 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:03,820 phone so but you know I guess for my dad 60 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:06,370 this was entertaining on his way to work 61 00:03:13,190 --> 00:03:09,310 he wasn't listening to music but 62 00:03:17,250 --> 00:03:13,200 gradually he started to change and he 63 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:17,260 his personality change which is what we 64 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:20,410 found disturbing he became very angry 65 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:26,650 and very argumentative and then when he 66 00:03:33,540 --> 00:03:30,930 fully retired he found Rush Limbaugh and 67 00:03:36,570 --> 00:03:33,550 then he started having his three-hour 68 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:36,580 what I call Limbaugh lunches you know 69 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:38,860 where he'd sit there with after lunch of 70 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:43,510 the beer and belch and listen and he 71 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:47,290 just became intolerable Limbaugh was is 72 00:03:53,250 --> 00:03:50,650 here so actually though what I started 73 00:03:57,090 --> 00:03:53,260 noticing around the same time that my 74 00:03:59,160 --> 00:03:57,100 dad would make these pronouncements like 75 00:04:01,470 --> 00:03:59,170 for instance one day he might just say 76 00:04:04,949 --> 00:04:01,480 well there's no such thing as organic 77 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:04,959 right just come out with that and then 78 00:04:10,290 --> 00:04:07,270 maybe two weeks later a friend would be 79 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:10,300 visiting me from the south and she would 80 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:13,270 say the exact same thing oh there's no 81 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:16,450 such thing organic you know and I 82 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:18,850 started noticing this like with certain 83 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:21,070 people it turned out later that that 84 00:04:26,230 --> 00:04:23,890 friend read Drudge The Drudge Report 85 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:26,240 that was her that was 86 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:29,810 you know so I just started putting this 87 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:32,810 together that my dad was being 88 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:37,460 influenced by this media and then I felt 89 00:04:43,270 --> 00:04:40,550 like I was on the Titanic when it had 90 00:04:46,570 --> 00:04:43,280 sprung a leak and nobody listened to me 91 00:04:51,189 --> 00:04:46,580 that you know the ship might be going 92 00:04:53,890 --> 00:04:51,199 down and because I just believed that 93 00:04:56,890 --> 00:04:53,900 media could really have a really big 94 00:05:00,129 --> 00:04:56,900 effect on people and bigger than we ever 95 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:00,139 suspected so that's why I wanted to make 96 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:02,930 a documentary about it and you know part 97 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:06,050 of that documentary was showing how the 98 00:05:12,909 --> 00:05:09,110 right and these far-right Republicans 99 00:05:17,249 --> 00:05:12,919 were trying to get really wanted their 100 00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:17,259 goal was eventually one-party rule and 101 00:05:22,689 --> 00:05:20,960 Hillary Clinton was said you know it was 102 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:22,699 a vast right-wing conspiracy and 103 00:05:29,140 --> 00:05:25,250 everybody laughed at the time and but 104 00:05:30,939 --> 00:05:29,150 you know what it it it was you know and 105 00:05:33,430 --> 00:05:30,949 then so I go into that in the movie you 106 00:05:36,689 --> 00:05:33,440 know with the Powell memo and the Roger 107 00:05:40,629 --> 00:05:36,699 ale memo and Telecommunications Act and 108 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:40,639 those kind of things yes it's really 109 00:05:45,159 --> 00:05:42,620 very interesting and the detail you go 110 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:45,169 into in all these the historical aspects 111 00:05:48,610 --> 00:05:46,310 of it was something I wasn't really 112 00:05:49,749 --> 00:05:48,620 expecting when I watched it the first 113 00:05:51,879 --> 00:05:49,759 time I thought it was gonna be more just 114 00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:51,889 about the story of your father but you 115 00:05:57,700 --> 00:05:54,620 really get into all these the political 116 00:06:01,060 --> 00:05:57,710 history of the conservative media in the 117 00:06:02,980 --> 00:06:01,070 United States and like you mentioned you 118 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:02,990 know Hillary Clinton saying the vast 119 00:06:08,140 --> 00:06:05,630 right-wing conspiracy which was 120 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:08,150 something that she was somewhat mocked 121 00:06:12,850 --> 00:06:11,060 for at the time obviously nervous that 122 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:12,860 the right-wing people would mock her for 123 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:15,650 something like that but you know in a 124 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:16,969 way there's either going to be a 125 00:06:23,709 --> 00:06:19,690 conspiracy on one side or the other is 126 00:06:26,770 --> 00:06:23,719 the right-wing media that you you 127 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:26,780 portray so well in your documentary uses 128 00:06:30,879 --> 00:06:28,190 a lot of conspiracy theories they 129 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:30,889 promote conspiracies areas and yet 130 00:06:35,469 --> 00:06:33,889 they're themselves propagating 131 00:06:38,890 --> 00:06:35,479 essentially something with their 132 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:38,900 conspiring against Hillary Clinton so 133 00:06:43,659 --> 00:06:41,449 I actually I write about conspiracy 134 00:06:47,409 --> 00:06:43,669 theories that's my area of interest oh 135 00:06:51,070 --> 00:06:47,419 well so it was very interesting to me to 136 00:06:53,740 --> 00:06:51,080 see you know that these much more real 137 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:53,750 world conspiracies in action than the 138 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:55,130 ones I'm used to because I talk about 139 00:07:00,550 --> 00:06:57,410 things like 9/11 being an inside job and 140 00:07:01,930 --> 00:07:00,560 chemtrails and the earth being flat and 141 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:01,940 things like that but then you've got 142 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:05,810 these very very real actual conspiracies 143 00:07:13,779 --> 00:07:10,070 or conspiracies in the major media okay 144 00:07:16,719 --> 00:07:13,789 yeah right just because conspiracy got a 145 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:16,729 bad word and so many of them are crazy 146 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:19,250 it doesn't mean that they they don't 147 00:07:26,100 --> 00:07:22,490 happen and I think it's it was 148 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:26,110 unfathomable for people to think that 149 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:29,440 the Republicans could actually be 150 00:07:36,610 --> 00:07:33,289 engaged in a conspiracy for one-party 151 00:07:41,379 --> 00:07:36,620 rule but I think the reason why my film 152 00:07:44,110 --> 00:07:41,389 keeps gaining popularity is because it's 153 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:44,120 becoming more obvious to so many people 154 00:07:51,490 --> 00:07:48,650 that hey this is what happened yeah you 155 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:51,500 go back to the the earliest days you 156 00:07:57,570 --> 00:07:53,210 kind of start up around the time of 157 00:08:01,810 --> 00:07:57,580 Nixon I guess was like the main kind of 158 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:01,820 jumping-off points in the film uh yeah 159 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:04,490 and Goldwater actually had before yeah 160 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:08,810 yeah Goldwater was kind of presidential 161 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:11,030 candidates and he was part of the John 162 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:12,650 Birch Society or supported by the John 163 00:08:19,659 --> 00:08:15,710 Birch Society yeah he was supported by 164 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:19,669 the John Birch Society and then when it 165 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:25,490 was revealed that the the founder of the 166 00:08:31,629 --> 00:08:28,130 John Birch Society called President 167 00:08:35,170 --> 00:08:31,639 Eisenhower a communist and everybody 168 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:35,180 kind of you know thought that the Birch 169 00:08:43,870 --> 00:08:38,510 Society was really sort of loony and so 170 00:08:46,930 --> 00:08:43,880 it sank his ship yeah yes an interesting 171 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:46,940 thing because the it resonates with 172 00:08:51,579 --> 00:08:49,310 things today like it's almost like 173 00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:51,589 things like that wouldn't sink ships 174 00:08:54,940 --> 00:08:52,400 nowadays 175 00:08:56,860 --> 00:08:54,950 because you can make much more 176 00:08:58,420 --> 00:08:56,870 outrageous claims nowadays than you 177 00:09:00,880 --> 00:08:58,430 could back then it seems like things are 178 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:00,890 a lot more reasonable banging then but 179 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:03,910 we've somehow arrived at a state where 180 00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:06,170 President Trump and other people can 181 00:09:10,420 --> 00:09:08,030 make quite outrageous claims and it 182 00:09:12,970 --> 00:09:10,430 doesn't think those ships yeah which is 183 00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:12,980 quite amazing and and I think that it's 184 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:15,560 gotten to the point words like anything 185 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:18,620 goes anything could be said you know 186 00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:20,570 just like he said he could walk out on 187 00:09:26,050 --> 00:09:22,790 Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody it's 188 00:09:29,290 --> 00:09:26,060 true because we've sort of lost our 189 00:09:31,630 --> 00:09:29,300 grounding in our sanity in a sense yeah 190 00:09:34,420 --> 00:09:31,640 there was an interesting thing with 191 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:34,430 Nixon that kind of rang a bell with me 192 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:37,550 which is with the hard hat riots where 193 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:39,530 you know they had this the students were 194 00:09:44,740 --> 00:09:42,230 protesting after the shooting at Kent 195 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:44,750 State yeah and then these construction 196 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:46,550 workers came in with our hard hats and 197 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:49,280 they started beating the students and 198 00:09:55,630 --> 00:09:53,270 then after that Nixon met with the 199 00:09:57,340 --> 00:09:55,640 leader of like some construction Union 200 00:10:00,550 --> 00:09:57,350 and the construction union guy presented 201 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:00,560 him with a symbolic hardhat and he put 202 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:02,560 it on and then it was almost like he was 203 00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:06,770 supporting the the violence right which 204 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:08,000 was kind of interesting cause it kind of 205 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:09,710 resonated with what you see today was 206 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:11,810 like with Trump's statement about him 207 00:10:17,770 --> 00:10:14,690 being able to shoot anybody yeah and I 208 00:10:22,660 --> 00:10:17,780 think before then people like that were 209 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:22,670 mostly Democrats because Democrats were 210 00:10:28,810 --> 00:10:25,660 for the Union but after that you know 211 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:28,820 Republicans made them their mark that's 212 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:31,730 who they needed to win over yes of 213 00:10:36,270 --> 00:10:33,710 working men using a working families the 214 00:10:41,050 --> 00:10:36,280 working classes or even middle classes 215 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:41,060 were more a Democrat and this was kind 216 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:43,910 of a deliberate strategy in a way by the 217 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:49,060 Republicans to win over you talk about 218 00:10:53,890 --> 00:10:50,570 Roger Ailes 219 00:10:56,500 --> 00:10:53,900 in the movie like yeah he obviously is 220 00:11:00,340 --> 00:10:56,510 most well known for Fox News nowadays 221 00:11:04,060 --> 00:11:00,350 but back then he was advising President 222 00:11:05,369 --> 00:11:04,070 Nixon on how to form his message and get 223 00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:05,379 that out and how to 224 00:11:12,119 --> 00:11:09,519 to use emotional soundbites to to get 225 00:11:18,019 --> 00:11:12,129 across to people as fascinating yeah 226 00:11:21,589 --> 00:11:18,029 well the Nixon was just lousy on 227 00:11:25,619 --> 00:11:21,599 television you know in the debate with 228 00:11:29,119 --> 00:11:25,629 John F Kennedy years before that you 229 00:11:33,949 --> 00:11:29,129 know you can see it was visibly sweaty 230 00:11:36,809 --> 00:11:33,959 uncomfortable and so Ailes was like look 231 00:11:39,059 --> 00:11:36,819 you have to get with the program you 232 00:11:41,489 --> 00:11:39,069 know TV is here and it's here to stay 233 00:11:43,710 --> 00:11:41,499 and Nixon didn't want to believe that 234 00:11:47,939 --> 00:11:43,720 like he just thought TV was a gimmick 235 00:11:50,549 --> 00:11:47,949 Roger Ailes really grew him he he helped 236 00:11:55,019 --> 00:11:50,559 a lot of people helped Bush one and 237 00:11:56,759 --> 00:11:55,029 Reagan so yeah documentary you talked to 238 00:11:58,829 --> 00:11:56,769 a lot of people in it how how did you 239 00:11:59,879 --> 00:11:58,839 actually how did you actually get this 240 00:12:01,529 --> 00:11:59,889 thing up and running 241 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:01,539 do you have background doing 242 00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:04,689 documentaries do you help doing it oh 243 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:08,079 yeah I had to have help yeah I I did two 244 00:12:14,819 --> 00:12:11,289 other documentaries each of them like 245 00:12:18,269 --> 00:12:14,829 were award-winning but they were the 246 00:12:22,409 --> 00:12:18,279 longest one was an hour and so this was 247 00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:22,419 really much more challenging and I think 248 00:12:28,079 --> 00:12:25,929 when people have a project that they're 249 00:12:31,469 --> 00:12:28,089 very passionate about and that they 250 00:12:36,749 --> 00:12:31,479 believe in something like magic happens 251 00:12:40,499 --> 00:12:36,759 because these people like just came 252 00:12:43,619 --> 00:12:40,509 across to me you know I so I met this 253 00:12:45,329 --> 00:12:43,629 woman from Occupy Wall Street and let 254 00:12:48,210 --> 00:12:45,339 her stay at my house and I told her 255 00:12:50,609 --> 00:12:48,220 about the movie and she said oh you got 256 00:12:52,769 --> 00:12:50,619 to meet my friend Jeff Cohen and so 257 00:12:56,519 --> 00:12:52,779 that's how I met Jeff Cohen and then 258 00:12:59,279 --> 00:12:56,529 another person who loved our former 259 00:13:01,439 --> 00:12:59,289 documentary called The Vanishing City 260 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:01,449 which was about the larger efficacious 261 00:13:06,989 --> 00:13:04,809 cities she said well you know you've got 262 00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:06,999 to talk to know this is his thing and 263 00:13:15,119 --> 00:13:13,600 I'm like no Chomsky Wow me and she said 264 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:15,129 well I think you know you should write 265 00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:17,800 something up and I'll look at it and 266 00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:21,220 you know I'll introduce you and you know 267 00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:24,910 he said he wasn't doing you know films 268 00:13:32,879 --> 00:13:28,420 or appearing that way anymore but he 269 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:32,889 decided he would and so things just kind 270 00:13:39,569 --> 00:13:36,040 of like rolled rolled out like that I 271 00:13:42,569 --> 00:13:39,579 mean it was really really really hard 272 00:13:44,669 --> 00:13:42,579 work I ended up getting pneumonia and 273 00:13:46,739 --> 00:13:44,679 shingles 274 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:46,749 I had a small team but a really 275 00:13:54,269 --> 00:13:50,769 dedicated team it was an amazing 276 00:13:57,359 --> 00:13:54,279 experience making it you have a lot of 277 00:13:58,319 --> 00:13:57,369 people in the documentary that uh you 278 00:14:00,840 --> 00:13:58,329 know people who are in similar 279 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:00,850 situations to yourself people who had 280 00:14:08,249 --> 00:14:05,110 friends or relatives who had a you know 281 00:14:10,799 --> 00:14:08,259 they got sucked into this Fox News black 282 00:14:14,489 --> 00:14:10,809 hole or some kind of talk radio black 283 00:14:15,479 --> 00:14:14,499 hole of you know anger how did you find 284 00:14:18,499 --> 00:14:15,489 those people 285 00:14:22,829 --> 00:14:18,509 well it's interesting I had a 286 00:14:24,539 --> 00:14:22,839 Kickstarter campaign to start off and we 287 00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:24,549 were pretty lucky with the Kickstarter 288 00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:26,920 campaign and I think I was asking for 289 00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:29,350 like eleven thousand dollars and I ended 290 00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:32,470 up getting 46,000 but what we happen is 291 00:14:39,179 --> 00:14:36,040 it was all like almost a thousand small 292 00:14:41,819 --> 00:14:39,189 donors and all these people were just as 293 00:14:45,419 --> 00:14:41,829 I say in the documentary just coming out 294 00:14:49,009 --> 00:14:45,429 of the woodwork telling me they had that 295 00:14:52,109 --> 00:14:49,019 same experience and it was it was 296 00:14:55,139 --> 00:14:52,119 cathartic for them it was a relief for 297 00:14:57,389 --> 00:14:55,149 them I became like the Ann Landers of 298 00:14:59,720 --> 00:14:57,399 you know this happened to my mom and dad 299 00:15:02,879 --> 00:14:59,730 I had I still have people that write me 300 00:15:06,259 --> 00:15:02,889 every day with their with their stories 301 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:06,269 so that's when I realized wow this is 302 00:15:11,939 --> 00:15:09,970 this is this is not just me this is this 303 00:15:15,329 --> 00:15:11,949 is a phenomenon it's happening across 304 00:15:18,299 --> 00:15:15,339 the country so I just put out the word 305 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:18,309 like on Kickstarter that hey if anybody 306 00:15:22,799 --> 00:15:21,220 wants to talk you know I can't come 307 00:15:25,859 --> 00:15:22,809 there because I can't afford it but 308 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:25,869 maybe we could do Skype so I set up my 309 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:29,410 little camera behind me just facing the 310 00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:31,690 computer and then just 311 00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:33,870 started doing these Skype interviews 312 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:37,360 yeah we've got a ton of them yeah I 313 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:38,740 think that was very effective because 314 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:40,810 you get to see this year weight of 315 00:15:44,340 --> 00:15:42,070 numbers you know it's not just one 316 00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:44,350 person with you your father you know 317 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:46,780 obviously the film is yes focus around 318 00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:48,910 your father but there's seeing all these 319 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:51,070 other people in the same situation was I 320 00:15:57,270 --> 00:15:55,570 think very powerful and you imagine you 321 00:15:59,580 --> 00:15:57,280 like you say you still get you still get 322 00:16:02,940 --> 00:15:59,590 people emailing you in the same same 323 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:02,950 thing I have something on my website 324 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:04,840 which is submit your personal story 325 00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:08,830 right so you know now people have some 326 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:11,680 of their stories and I put them on the 327 00:16:17,930 --> 00:16:13,590 website 328 00:16:20,670 --> 00:16:17,940 so you know what's really interesting is 329 00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:20,680 yeah this is the kind of deliberateness 330 00:16:26,610 --> 00:16:24,760 of this vast right-wing conspiracy if I 331 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:26,620 wanted a better word now I know some 332 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:28,450 people are going to watch or listen to 333 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:30,310 this podcast and neither see it as being 334 00:16:34,380 --> 00:16:33,130 very political or you if it is to a 335 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:34,390 certain degree you know there's there's 336 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:37,330 liberals versus conservatives there's 337 00:16:45,930 --> 00:16:43,090 the the conservative push to you know in 338 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:45,940 get themselves into the media it's been 339 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:49,570 so so strong did you have people talking 340 00:16:58,170 --> 00:16:52,210 about a liberal push back trying to 341 00:17:01,320 --> 00:16:58,180 counter that at the time I mean any kind 342 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:01,330 of push back was pathetic and I think 343 00:17:09,030 --> 00:17:03,460 people were not really could not really 344 00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:09,040 grasp just how how powerful this media 345 00:17:16,199 --> 00:17:12,040 was and and what was behind it and the 346 00:17:20,130 --> 00:17:16,209 money behind it I mean if you read Nancy 347 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:20,140 Maclean's book democracy in Chains she 348 00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:23,500 talks about when she goes back to like 349 00:17:28,199 --> 00:17:25,060 the 50s were there were these 350 00:17:29,850 --> 00:17:28,209 billionaires North Carolina and some of 351 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:29,860 the southern states that were really 352 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:33,880 upset about Brant Brown versus the Board 353 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,370 of Education they decided that they 354 00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:41,200 didn't believe that they should pay 355 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:45,280 taxes for anything not public school not 356 00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:48,850 library you know social security and so 357 00:17:55,290 --> 00:17:52,150 they really the seed of it started back 358 00:17:58,170 --> 00:17:55,300 then the one thing they had that many 359 00:18:01,020 --> 00:17:58,180 liberals did not was like a lot of these 360 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:01,030 billionaires jane mayer talks about it 361 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:03,850 also as well and dark money you know the 362 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:06,850 money behind this so I think you know I 363 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:09,790 don't see it as liberals versus 364 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:11,980 conservatives I mean I don't have 365 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:15,310 anything against conservatives I think 366 00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:21,390 there's a purpose for all but these were 367 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:24,640 radical far-right libertarians that were 368 00:18:31,770 --> 00:18:28,420 trying to turn the country upside down 369 00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:31,780 for the benefit of themselves and I 370 00:18:38,580 --> 00:18:35,620 think that so many people found it so 371 00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:38,590 hard to believe and so and so hard to 372 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:42,430 grasp that that's why you know Democrats 373 00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:45,670 were just so ineffective at fighting it 374 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:49,120 I was very frustrated and there was 375 00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:51,970 never any like big money behind you know 376 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:54,790 that's why air America failed there was 377 00:19:02,430 --> 00:18:58,210 never any big liberal money behind 378 00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:02,440 trying to counter that mania you think 379 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:04,830 it's ideologically driven or 380 00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:07,210 self-interest driven what would you say 381 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:10,000 is the is it just a bunch of 382 00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:11,710 billionaires looking out for their own 383 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:13,630 interests or do they have some kind of 384 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:15,790 grand plan I think I think they're doing 385 00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:18,250 God's work or they think that you know 386 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:21,660 the iron Rand was right you know what 387 00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:25,090 was the prime driver but behind these 388 00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:28,840 billionaires do you think their ideology 389 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:33,280 is born of their self-interest it's that 390 00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:36,730 so it's like they've created this 391 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:40,000 ideology to support their self-interest 392 00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:44,680 and Iran was like a nice fit I used to 393 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:47,830 actually be an N gamma and follower at 394 00:19:54,170 --> 00:19:51,250 one point in my life in my 30s because 395 00:19:59,250 --> 00:19:54,180 it was sort of like an antidote to 396 00:20:01,019 --> 00:19:59,260 Catholicism so first of the appeal but I 397 00:20:05,299 --> 00:20:01,029 eventually realize that it kind of 398 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:05,309 doesn't really work in real life yeah 399 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:09,580 did you you grew up Catholic I did yeah 400 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:11,980 yeah I did too it's interesting the the 401 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:13,870 guy I interviewed a few days ago 402 00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:16,450 was also grew up Catholic but he's kind 403 00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:19,120 of the polar opposite of you and I was 404 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:20,559 thinking about you and your documentary 405 00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:22,450 when I was talking to him because he is 406 00:20:28,289 --> 00:20:26,230 a tea party Republican and and he 407 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:28,299 repeats a lot of the talking points that 408 00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:31,740 you hear on conservative talk radio and 409 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:34,630 one of the things that you talked about 410 00:20:40,889 --> 00:20:38,110 in your documentary later on is you know 411 00:20:45,299 --> 00:20:40,899 how your your dad kind of changed when 412 00:20:49,169 --> 00:20:45,309 he started listening to NPR and this guy 413 00:20:53,549 --> 00:20:49,179 dur Joe who I interview with my previous 414 00:20:58,110 --> 00:20:53,559 podcast he also listens to NPR so and it 415 00:21:00,930 --> 00:20:58,120 didn't work it didn't work but you know 416 00:21:03,899 --> 00:21:00,940 getting getting going back to your dad I 417 00:21:05,129 --> 00:21:03,909 think you know one of the things that I 418 00:21:06,629 --> 00:21:05,139 took away from the film that I 419 00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:06,639 remembered most about it and I was 420 00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:07,870 surprised actually at how that they'd 421 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:09,220 actually featured when I went back and 422 00:21:14,879 --> 00:21:12,730 watched it again was this thing where a 423 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:14,889 your dad you know moved 424 00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:17,260 you don't move house and the radio broke 425 00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:20,350 and then the TV broke and then your your 426 00:21:24,930 --> 00:21:22,840 mom reprogrammed the remote so he didn't 427 00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:24,940 have Fox on it and then she unsubscribed 428 00:21:28,259 --> 00:21:26,799 him from these email lists and 429 00:21:31,470 --> 00:21:28,269 subscribed names of some different email 430 00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:31,480 lists and this kind of he kind of worked 431 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:35,740 in Reverse yeah well when she programmed 432 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:37,330 the remotes 433 00:21:44,789 --> 00:21:41,070 she didn't not program Fox is just that 434 00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:44,799 she does she likes to do that and so 435 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:48,190 they had stickies all over them that my 436 00:21:53,129 --> 00:21:50,830 dad would frequently like you know just 437 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:53,139 mess it up so he just ended up watching 438 00:21:59,009 --> 00:21:55,990 what she watched she had it on a news 439 00:22:02,190 --> 00:21:59,019 channel so that's what happened there 440 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:02,200 definitely when his media diet changed 441 00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:04,840 he changed but you know it didn't mean 442 00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:08,080 that he became like a total Democrat or 443 00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:10,240 you know liberal or anything like that 444 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:13,000 you know the end in the movies 445 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:15,130 I'm not all Democrat I'm not only 446 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:18,610 publican but yet he believed in marriage 447 00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:22,780 equality which was remarkable yeah he 448 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:25,270 turned around a bit on his opinion of 449 00:22:35,220 --> 00:22:32,290 Obama yeah he was very interesting did 450 00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,230 you come away from the film with advice 451 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:37,120 that you would give to people in similar 452 00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,480 situations you know what works and what 453 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:42,640 doesn't you have the story of your dad 454 00:22:47,850 --> 00:22:45,250 and you advise people you mean you can't 455 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:47,860 really advise people to detune radios 456 00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:50,110 and things like that but what advice do 457 00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:51,940 you give to people in similar situations 458 00:23:03,480 --> 00:22:58,480 I I do I on Twitter I've got a little a 459 00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:03,490 little bit of a following and many of my 460 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:06,400 followers that have told other people 461 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:10,120 how they can put child locks on their TV 462 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:13,450 so that their parents can't watch Fox so 463 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:16,770 and I don't really discourage that I 464 00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:21,610 just go along with it but there's the 465 00:23:26,610 --> 00:23:25,660 couple in my film at the end they hear 466 00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:26,620 yourself think 467 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:30,790 talk about Socratic questioning because 468 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:33,970 what happens is with these people that 469 00:23:39,330 --> 00:23:36,310 get sucked into right-wing media it's 470 00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,340 propaganda that aims for the emotions it 471 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:41,440 seems especially from fear and aims 472 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:44,650 especially for anger so you know their 473 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:48,850 their amygdala is what's activated so if 474 00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:51,820 you try and bring their rational brain 475 00:23:58,980 --> 00:23:55,990 in by asking Socratic questions you know 476 00:24:02,040 --> 00:23:58,990 well why do you believe this or what do 477 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:02,050 you think about that and you know don't 478 00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:05,020 have a temper about it frequently you'll 479 00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:08,620 see you'll see people sometimes coming 480 00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:11,800 to like more neutral territory at least 481 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:13,630 like on the website hear yourself think 482 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:15,940 you can see them actually doing this 483 00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:18,070 outside like when they have there was 484 00:24:24,420 --> 00:24:20,350 Glenn Beck rallies or whatever talking 485 00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,430 to some people and kind of like getting 486 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:26,640 them to think 487 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:29,490 I'm not saying it's easy but you know 488 00:24:35,870 --> 00:24:31,890 that was the other thing that I did with 489 00:24:39,230 --> 00:24:35,880 my dad was if it was an argument no that 490 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:39,240 would not work but like one time when I 491 00:24:44,539 --> 00:24:42,210 was unemployed and I was trying to get 492 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:44,549 health insurance I just was talking to 493 00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:46,110 him from a personal point of view 494 00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:48,870 telling him like the limit to 495 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:52,799 hospitalization is $100,000 you you have 496 00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:55,440 a seven thousand dollar deductible I 497 00:25:01,039 --> 00:24:58,130 don't know what to do dad you know and 498 00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:01,049 you know what I mean like it made him 499 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,840 think yeah he was giving in the bad 500 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:05,760 facts of the matter and you know asking 501 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:12,270 him his opinion on those facts anger 502 00:25:20,150 --> 00:25:16,710 then they're gonna get more set in there 503 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:20,160 because it feels like a confrontation or 504 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:23,010 direct threat to who they are you don't 505 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:24,900 want to do that yeah something I 506 00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:26,130 definitely found when talking to 507 00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:29,910 conspiracy theorists is that if they 508 00:25:32,659 --> 00:25:30,960 ever get to a state where they're 509 00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:32,669 feeling angry with you or if they're 510 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:36,000 feeling attacked in any way then they 511 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:38,970 don't mind just kind of yes shuts out 512 00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:41,730 what you're saying yeah and you really 513 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:43,230 have to kind of do it in kind of a 514 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:45,210 roundabout way you've got to kind of 515 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:49,320 work numbers talk around the topic yeah 516 00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:52,890 just get in the one bit at a time and 517 00:25:57,650 --> 00:25:54,630 like there's Socratic questioning just 518 00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:57,660 like a series of calm logical questions 519 00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:01,200 one after the other about a topic you 520 00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:05,400 know works very well you know one thing 521 00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:08,240 you you had in the documentary was a few 522 00:26:18,140 --> 00:26:11,940 young people who watched Fox News there 523 00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:18,150 was a guy Matthews Sekar oh yeah how did 524 00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:22,350 you how did you come across Matthew oh I 525 00:26:31,460 --> 00:26:26,640 don't remember like I know I think 526 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:31,470 somebody saw people would tell me when 527 00:26:38,659 --> 00:26:34,710 they saw an article that they thought of 528 00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,669 Pike so he wrote this article for I 529 00:26:42,919 --> 00:26:40,320 forget what it was 530 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:42,929 now was it Huffington Post or something 531 00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:47,220 you know how Sean Hannity stole my brain 532 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:49,950 so like man I got to get in touch with 533 00:26:58,909 --> 00:26:54,090 this kid this might be great so he just 534 00:27:00,860 --> 00:26:58,919 agreed to talk to me yeah yeah it seems 535 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:00,870 like this you know obviously a huge 536 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:02,730 difference between what's going on there 537 00:27:07,370 --> 00:27:04,710 with the older people then you talk 538 00:27:09,740 --> 00:27:07,380 about you know people turning off the 539 00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:09,750 you know looking at their parents from 540 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:13,740 the TVs and young people it seemed like 541 00:27:17,810 --> 00:27:14,610 you'd have to have a very different 542 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:17,820 approach for for it for youngsters you 543 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:20,090 know especially once they've left home 544 00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:22,769 yeah you know you have any thoughts on 545 00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:25,980 how best to approach young people who 546 00:27:32,899 --> 00:27:29,279 start getting sucked into this type of 547 00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:32,909 thing or is it kind of an outlier I mean 548 00:27:37,879 --> 00:27:34,500 you're you said birth is mostly older 549 00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:37,889 people I think that some young people 550 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:40,590 get sucked into because they're they're 551 00:27:45,769 --> 00:27:42,809 adopting what their parents think and 552 00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:45,779 they're not maybe thinking about it you 553 00:27:50,539 --> 00:27:48,000 know they're just accepting what they 554 00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:50,549 say I don't really have anything in 555 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:53,159 particular by against the same thing 556 00:28:00,080 --> 00:27:56,970 would work with them like you know 557 00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,090 Socratic questioning but also sometimes 558 00:28:07,129 --> 00:28:03,360 I have to say I do think we need to 559 00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:07,139 stigmatize like Fox and you know Rush 560 00:28:14,990 --> 00:28:10,860 Limbaugh and make fun of that a little 561 00:28:18,139 --> 00:28:15,000 bit and you know maybe not to the person 562 00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:18,149 but point out the ridiculousness of it 563 00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:21,120 point out how these people are being 564 00:28:26,749 --> 00:28:23,820 bamboozled you know and there and and 565 00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:26,759 kind of get that out there stigmatize it 566 00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:28,740 and then you know young people 567 00:28:34,190 --> 00:28:30,360 especially they don't want to feel like 568 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:34,200 they're not in the know yeah one thing 569 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:37,049 you do in the the last like half hour of 570 00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:39,330 the documentary as you talk about all 571 00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:41,340 the the techniques that people use that 572 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:42,750 you wanted to see like what is 573 00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:45,330 brainwashing and what people do and you 574 00:28:50,450 --> 00:28:46,980 you lay out I think nine different 575 00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:50,460 techniques starting out with lying and 576 00:28:54,140 --> 00:28:53,039 skewing and confusing and doubt blame 577 00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:54,150 and divide and 578 00:29:01,460 --> 00:28:56,510 and goes on you've got this long list of 579 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:01,470 techniques and I think you know one 580 00:29:05,570 --> 00:29:03,450 thing you can do is if you educate 581 00:29:09,620 --> 00:29:05,580 people that these techniques are being 582 00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:09,630 used on them yes they're not in a way 583 00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:12,060 can kind of immunize them against them 584 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:13,860 if they can recognize oh this is what 585 00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:16,650 they're trying to do yeah no you're 586 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:18,960 right we should have media literacy to 587 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:23,490 pot in in school ya know one of the 588 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:26,010 things tactic 7 here bullying and 589 00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:28,650 shaming you had some good examples of 590 00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:32,630 that where the the host on Fox News 591 00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:35,760 basically started shouting at the the 592 00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:37,470 guest you know they were interviewing 593 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:41,460 and then feigning outrage to try to see 594 00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:43,290 how the audience position and I think 595 00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,200 yeah in a way that guest should have 596 00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:48,480 known that this was a tactic that people 597 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,750 use as well yeah I don't think you can 598 00:29:58,100 --> 00:29:53,580 really you teach everybody about kind of 599 00:30:00,620 --> 00:29:58,110 rhetorical dueling on TV but having 600 00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:00,630 people aware that it's happening is is 601 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:02,310 very important 602 00:30:09,530 --> 00:30:05,370 well feigning the feigning anger that's 603 00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:09,540 they all do on Fox News all the time 604 00:30:18,170 --> 00:30:12,150 the the feign anger like they feigned 605 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:18,180 anger at Obama if he played golf or in 606 00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:22,890 suit yeah exactly you you talked about 607 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:24,900 Frank Luntz that you didn't have Frank 608 00:30:29,660 --> 00:30:26,730 Luntz on the show did you did you 609 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:29,670 interview him yeah alright so that was 610 00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:31,170 me very interesting to Frank Luntz is a 611 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:35,100 very interesting chap owner because you 612 00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:36,410 know he's obviously very is a 613 00:30:41,810 --> 00:30:38,520 conservative pollster oh so it's almost 614 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:41,820 described but you also see him on things 615 00:30:45,770 --> 00:30:43,410 like The Daily Show and things like that 616 00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:45,780 and he seems like a very nice and 617 00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:49,230 intelligent person and yet is using his 618 00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:50,880 powers for evil 619 00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:54,240 it seems yeah you know he's quite 620 00:31:01,220 --> 00:30:59,360 affable yes if then so was Hitler so 621 00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:01,230 know that I got anything against 622 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:03,120 Franklin's I don't I do not know him but 623 00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:04,770 you know obviously if one thing you 624 00:31:08,090 --> 00:31:07,140 talked about was how he invented all 625 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:08,100 these terms 626 00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:11,910 but he coined the phrase death tax right 627 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:15,110 to replace estate tax and governments 628 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:17,730 government takeover to replace 629 00:31:24,409 --> 00:31:20,610 government control which are very 630 00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:24,419 powerful things that say years yeah and 631 00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:27,809 again yeah it's almost yeah you would 632 00:31:31,610 --> 00:31:29,100 want to think that you could educate 633 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:31,620 people that these tricks are being 634 00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:35,010 played upon them but I think with a lot 635 00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:37,230 of people it's it's gonna be difficult 636 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:39,240 to do that level of thing and it's 637 00:31:44,570 --> 00:31:41,090 almost like you have to reply in kind 638 00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:44,580 you have to use tricks of your own yeah 639 00:31:51,409 --> 00:31:48,240 propaganda of your own do you see it all 640 00:31:53,149 --> 00:31:51,419 like things changing recently he said 641 00:31:55,549 --> 00:31:53,159 that the the liberal or the Democratic 642 00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:55,559 response to this was very poor in the 643 00:32:03,380 --> 00:31:58,320 past do you see anything changing in 644 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:03,390 last couple of years I do and I thought 645 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:06,770 I I did and I thought it was happening 646 00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:11,850 faster than it actually is but I yeah I 647 00:32:17,330 --> 00:32:14,460 mean I think that you know like the 648 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:17,340 major news networks and the cable news 649 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:20,730 networks like MSNBC and CNN are a little 650 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:24,090 more hip to what Fox News does whereas 651 00:32:29,690 --> 00:32:27,450 before they cater to them I feel like 652 00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:29,700 they almost had PTSD like they were 653 00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:34,140 accused of being too liberal and so they 654 00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:36,179 bent over backwards to show they weren't 655 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:37,980 and then finally they realized oh wait a 656 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:40,710 minute we don't have to be like them and 657 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:43,230 they're kind of bullying us and that's 658 00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,210 what they are is bullies I don't think 659 00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:47,460 they fully realized just how much 660 00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:50,700 influence they have but I could see it 661 00:32:56,899 --> 00:32:54,150 as a start it does seem like they're 662 00:32:59,570 --> 00:32:56,909 starting to catch on yeah yeah that's 663 00:33:03,080 --> 00:32:59,580 starting to become aware of you just how 664 00:33:06,350 --> 00:33:03,090 well Fox News tactics I'm working in 665 00:33:11,539 --> 00:33:06,360 some ways so the I think the the media 666 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:11,549 like CNN and MSNBC it seems to me I 667 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:12,809 don't know you have a different 668 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:14,250 perception but it seems to me in some 669 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:16,470 ways they're becoming almost like Fox 670 00:33:20,270 --> 00:33:18,570 but left-wing like they're they're 671 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:20,280 becoming a bit more and exactly 672 00:33:25,919 --> 00:33:20,980 propaganda 673 00:33:28,409 --> 00:33:25,929 let's it does seem a bit more biased on 674 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:28,419 a left-wing side and then it was in the 675 00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:30,010 past I don't know if that's something 676 00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:35,679 that you've noticed at all yeah well I 677 00:33:41,669 --> 00:33:39,160 don't think CNN is very much sometimes 678 00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:41,679 it you know it still will have like 679 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:45,480 Kellyanne Conway or hard people that are 680 00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:49,510 obviously really they went out a lot I 681 00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:53,200 mean like Jon Stewart said oh no no no 682 00:33:59,610 --> 00:33:55,630 it was Stephen Colbert truth is a 683 00:34:02,549 --> 00:33:59,620 liberal bias oh yes reality has a 684 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:02,559 liberal bias as I've heard that one as 685 00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:02,770 well 686 00:34:14,879 --> 00:34:09,250 I do think that MSNBC leans anti-trump 687 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:14,889 they they are anti Trump but I mean you 688 00:34:20,190 --> 00:34:16,570 know if you're paying attention you 689 00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:20,200 should be he's an abomination he's a 690 00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:23,950 wannabe dictator he's a fraud he's a con 691 00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:27,760 and you know I hope that doesn't get 692 00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:32,080 your other guess people that listen 693 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:36,760 listeners angry but he is and you know 694 00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:39,250 if you if you've got a Hitler you got a 695 00:34:44,669 --> 00:34:41,800 call on that so I'm glad they do that 696 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:44,679 but I will say this that they are not 697 00:34:51,629 --> 00:34:47,770 completely liberal because they're still 698 00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:51,639 run by a corporation and so there's 699 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:53,320 going to be constraints there's going to 700 00:34:58,920 --> 00:34:56,050 be restrictions you know it's still like 701 00:35:01,260 --> 00:34:58,930 a very narrow window of what they can 702 00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:01,270 report on and what they what they talk 703 00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:03,119 about like they're not going to be real 704 00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:05,920 anti-war they're not gonna have on noam 705 00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:10,270 chomsky so I'm not not fully liberal but 706 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:13,830 yeah they do know that their audience is 707 00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,930 mostly liberal right so that in some 708 00:35:20,490 --> 00:35:18,880 ways they have to you know pander to 709 00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:20,500 their audience a little bit and give the 710 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:22,270 audience what they want so that they 711 00:35:27,150 --> 00:35:24,850 they keep their audience yeah do you 712 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:27,160 think there are media outlets that are 713 00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:31,210 genuine alternatives to to Fox News like 714 00:35:36,570 --> 00:35:34,270 NPR in many would you recommend MP 715 00:35:39,330 --> 00:35:36,580 as something people should should listen 716 00:35:45,870 --> 00:35:39,340 to or watch on the internet I listen to 717 00:35:49,470 --> 00:35:45,880 NPR but I mean it's it's I'm thankful 718 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:49,480 for it but it's not perfectly objective 719 00:35:55,770 --> 00:35:52,450 either like then since cokes have given 720 00:35:57,530 --> 00:35:55,780 them money so you don't really hear them 721 00:36:01,310 --> 00:35:57,540 talking against fracking 722 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:01,320 unfortunately so they they have their 723 00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:05,290 limitations to that are there because of 724 00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:07,870 money and where they get their money but 725 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:10,900 generally I think they do a pretty good 726 00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:14,890 job of investigation and you know 727 00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:20,110 they're about as good as you can get but 728 00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:23,440 you know there's some good online things 729 00:36:28,110 --> 00:36:25,150 that you can read you know like reader 730 00:36:31,830 --> 00:36:28,120 supported news alternate or common 731 00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:31,840 dreams well what would you suggest like 732 00:36:37,590 --> 00:36:35,310 say if someone is very conservative and 733 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:37,600 they're listening to Fox News 734 00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:39,490 it would seem difficult to suggest as 735 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:41,400 someone who is a conservative relative 736 00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:44,890 or a friend you know don't don't don't 737 00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:46,600 listen to Fox News go over to CNN 738 00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:52,240 because they or go to NPR how do you how 739 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:54,040 do you start to shift the opinion of 740 00:37:00,960 --> 00:36:55,810 someone who is deeply entrenched in 741 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:00,970 conservatism or is it even possible it's 742 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:06,400 possible as example by my dad and by the 743 00:37:14,970 --> 00:37:12,850 guy in my film it does happen 744 00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:14,980 I certainly and I love it but you know I 745 00:37:18,930 --> 00:37:17,140 see this with conspiracy theorists who 746 00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:18,940 are very deep into things 747 00:37:25,110 --> 00:37:23,110 and people do get out it's often very 748 00:37:26,970 --> 00:37:25,120 difficult to see what the path is for 749 00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:26,980 any one individual you know I don't want 750 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:29,350 to say like people shouldn't be 751 00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:30,970 conservative Zoar have conservative 752 00:37:34,770 --> 00:37:32,710 values right 753 00:37:36,990 --> 00:37:34,780 getting outside of this kind of toxic 754 00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:37,000 conservatism of the you know the talk 755 00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:40,000 radio and anger type thing yeah see I 756 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:41,950 don't even call it conservatives yeah 757 00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:44,800 yeah but conservative like Teddy 758 00:37:48,809 --> 00:37:47,020 Roosevelt was conservative Eisenhower 759 00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:48,819 was conservative 760 00:37:53,339 --> 00:37:51,430 these people are far-right and they 761 00:37:55,140 --> 00:37:53,349 don't realize that they've been radical 762 00:37:58,799 --> 00:37:55,150 you know in the center and has been 763 00:38:02,789 --> 00:37:58,809 moved so far to the right that what is 764 00:38:05,309 --> 00:38:02,799 really you know what a lot of people 765 00:38:09,059 --> 00:38:05,319 actually really support is considered 766 00:38:13,939 --> 00:38:09,069 left and socialistic and that's it's 767 00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:13,949 it's just a misperception of you know 768 00:38:20,579 --> 00:38:18,160 how we think yeah yeah I grew up in 769 00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:20,589 England and in England people said that 770 00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:24,160 in America the Democrats more 771 00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:25,900 conservative than the British 772 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:28,209 conservatives it's all kind of a matter 773 00:38:33,269 --> 00:38:30,729 of perspective as to you know where you 774 00:38:38,269 --> 00:38:33,279 think what centrism is and what is right 775 00:38:40,319 --> 00:38:38,279 and what is left american democrats they 776 00:38:41,549 --> 00:38:40,329 then the Conservatives 777 00:38:43,769 --> 00:38:41,559 this is just what I was told when I was 778 00:38:45,809 --> 00:38:43,779 I was growing up and I think it is true 779 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:45,819 to a certain degree I mean in the the 780 00:38:50,249 --> 00:38:48,130 Conservatives in Britain at that time 781 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:50,259 were still supporting universal health 782 00:38:57,150 --> 00:38:53,680 care and strong social welfare safety 783 00:39:01,469 --> 00:38:57,160 net yeah because England coming out of 784 00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:01,479 the war became very very socialist yeah 785 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:04,209 in the fifties and sixties and then 786 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:07,089 there's a bit of a backlash starting in 787 00:39:15,930 --> 00:39:12,729 the 80s with with Thatcher yes yes it's 788 00:39:16,859 --> 00:39:15,940 all relative and I think that these it 789 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:16,869 took me you talk about people's 790 00:39:23,029 --> 00:39:19,930 ideologies like being conservative in 791 00:39:27,150 --> 00:39:23,039 terms of I guess a fiscal conservatives 792 00:39:31,699 --> 00:39:27,160 who want less taxes that's a reasonable 793 00:39:33,509 --> 00:39:31,709 position that you can argue about yeah 794 00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:33,519 yeah and I think we can all have 795 00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:35,140 reasonable discussions about that and 796 00:39:39,749 --> 00:39:37,089 and other issues as well like to what 797 00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:39,759 degree should there be social welfare or 798 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:42,160 whatever what should our foreign policy 799 00:39:46,859 --> 00:39:43,690 be yeah 800 00:39:49,499 --> 00:39:46,869 yeah those are all Sinemet arguments but 801 00:39:52,890 --> 00:39:49,509 the right did watch those arguments they 802 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:52,900 just wanted their way yeah and that's 803 00:39:57,989 --> 00:39:55,930 something I you yeah it reminds me of 804 00:40:00,320 --> 00:39:57,999 the tactic number three that you you 805 00:40:02,270 --> 00:40:00,330 said which was blame and divide 806 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:02,280 yeah which is to get people to fight 807 00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:05,130 against each other right recognizing 808 00:40:12,850 --> 00:40:08,400 where the common enemy is in a way which 809 00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:12,860 is these essentially oligarchs who are 810 00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:17,280 manipulating society from above well 811 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:19,320 that's a very difficult thing to convey 812 00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:21,930 to people if Prime to think that you're 813 00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:24,750 just a stupid liberal who's being 814 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:27,000 brainwashed by the liberal media into 815 00:40:37,610 --> 00:40:33,450 believing that wait it's such a a mirror 816 00:40:39,410 --> 00:40:37,620 thing like they're brainwashed to think 817 00:40:43,490 --> 00:40:39,420 that you're brainwashed 818 00:40:45,530 --> 00:40:43,500 because not what they believe so 819 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:45,540 therefore you brainwash by the liberal 820 00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:48,450 media and I don't even think and the 821 00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:51,870 media isn't even liberal yeah that was 822 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:53,670 something if you actually analyze the 823 00:40:58,700 --> 00:40:56,340 the biases of the media it's you know 824 00:41:01,580 --> 00:40:58,710 it's not really it's not really that 825 00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:01,590 liberal when it comes down to it yeah I 826 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:04,230 think I'm gonna get my friend Joe or we 827 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:06,810 interviewed last week too to watch your 828 00:41:12,290 --> 00:41:09,930 documentary and see what he makes of it 829 00:41:15,250 --> 00:41:12,300 and to watch this interview with you as 830 00:41:19,670 --> 00:41:15,260 well which you'll be interesting for him 831 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:19,680 let me see hi Joe right 832 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:22,350 anything that offends you too much my 833 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:25,650 heart is open thank you for watching the 834 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:28,290 documentary I'll say that right now 835 00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:29,970 he'll appreciate that you're here he 836 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:33,120 look he listens to NPR so he's not you 837 00:41:36,470 --> 00:41:34,290 know he's not a completely close minded 838 00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:36,480 person and he used to be a conspiracy 839 00:41:41,330 --> 00:41:39,180 theorist and that he believed somewhat 840 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:41,340 in the chemtrail conspiracy theory which 841 00:41:45,410 --> 00:41:43,170 is a one of the stranger conspiracy 842 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:45,420 theories out there I have a liberal 843 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:48,210 friend who believes in that chemtrail 844 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:53,370 thing yeah yeah it's you know it's it's 845 00:42:02,780 --> 00:41:57,450 quite popular and conspiracy circles so 846 00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:02,790 if you know he doesn't I talked him out 847 00:42:06,830 --> 00:42:04,560 of it 848 00:42:08,630 --> 00:42:06,840 my website that I started out on was 849 00:42:10,010 --> 00:42:08,640 called contrail science which is all 850 00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:10,020 about debunking the chemtrail conspiracy 851 00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:13,140 theory and 852 00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:18,140 he went on it yeah I think to my friend 853 00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:20,430 yes you should do yes control science 854 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:22,440 and also meta bunk which is the other 855 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:26,910 one I can I can send you these yeah 856 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:29,010 because I definitely I recommend your 857 00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:32,310 film to anybody who's having issues like 858 00:42:38,740 --> 00:42:34,440 this like I told you that a lady texted 859 00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:38,750 me messaged me on Facebook last week and 860 00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:42,300 what she described really sounded like 861 00:42:45,380 --> 00:42:44,040 what some of the people in your your 862 00:42:49,610 --> 00:42:45,390 documentary were talking about her 863 00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:49,620 husband had become very angry because 864 00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:52,470 he's been watching a lot of I don't know 865 00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:54,150 what he was exactly like talk radio I 866 00:43:02,750 --> 00:43:00,240 guess there's need to talk radio and she 867 00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:02,760 said that it resonated with with again 868 00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:05,280 it's hard to see what the solution is 869 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:09,030 for her it's a good first step simply 870 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:10,410 knowing that there are lots of other 871 00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:12,560 people going through the same situation 872 00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:16,790 it is and we have to press our 873 00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:21,510 representatives to recognize the power 874 00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:26,670 of right-wing media and to recognize 875 00:43:34,340 --> 00:43:31,680 that if you don't do anything about this 876 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:34,350 media then you're not going to get very 877 00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:38,910 far with other things that matter yeah 878 00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:41,310 and that's you know do you think that 879 00:43:45,860 --> 00:43:43,880 there's some kind of legislative 880 00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:45,870 remedies that needs to be put in place 881 00:43:51,620 --> 00:43:49,260 like we had the telecom reform Act which 882 00:43:53,870 --> 00:43:51,630 you talk about in your documentary which 883 00:43:57,410 --> 00:43:53,880 gave a lot of power to the big six media 884 00:44:00,980 --> 00:43:57,420 companies before that or the Fairness 885 00:44:04,220 --> 00:44:00,990 Doctrine was somewhere if they don't 886 00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:04,230 have to be fair and balanced essentially 887 00:44:09,020 --> 00:44:05,820 anymore in the news 888 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:09,030 well yeah I think you know big media has 889 00:44:16,370 --> 00:44:13,530 to be broken up and another good film to 890 00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:16,380 watch is called broadcast blues which 891 00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:19,950 talks about what happened either after 892 00:44:25,700 --> 00:44:22,140 the fairness yeah after the Fairness 893 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:25,710 Doctrine Oh how like national radio 894 00:44:33,330 --> 00:44:26,770 stations 895 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:33,340 right and then there was this huge fire 896 00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:39,130 in this town and nobody knew because the 897 00:44:44,330 --> 00:44:42,040 local radio station was run by somebody 898 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:44,340 that was special so they weren't getting 899 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:49,650 anything local it would be secondhand so 900 00:44:55,500 --> 00:44:52,690 the local radio stations have to belong 901 00:44:58,980 --> 00:44:55,510 to local people you have to break up the 902 00:45:02,550 --> 00:44:58,990 big conglomerates you know the media is 903 00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:02,560 owned by like six corporations so it 904 00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:04,480 really shouldn't be like that I mean we 905 00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:06,160 should need to go back to something like 906 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:08,380 the original Telecommunications Act 907 00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:12,610 which FDR enacted because he saw it what 908 00:45:18,030 --> 00:45:15,400 was happening in Germany and how gurbles 909 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:18,040 buying giving everybody these free 910 00:45:22,590 --> 00:45:20,170 radios and just having that one source 911 00:45:25,980 --> 00:45:22,600 of influence you know then they could 912 00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:25,990 control the way people thought so of 913 00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:28,000 course now it's changing over to 914 00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:30,550 internet so a lot of people wouldn't 915 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:32,760 even be listening to the radio nowadays 916 00:45:38,820 --> 00:45:35,850 they could listening to the internet 917 00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:38,830 getting yeah that's that's what sprang 918 00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:41,310 to mind immediately as I said that was 919 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:44,790 people working on auto body shop right 920 00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:47,490 people that were you know sewing and 921 00:45:55,820 --> 00:45:50,470 factories they'd still listen to the 922 00:46:00,900 --> 00:45:55,830 radio yeah I think something that's 923 00:46:02,430 --> 00:46:00,910 growing there there is podcasts where 924 00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:02,440 people are actually downloading these 925 00:46:08,220 --> 00:46:06,160 quite long long podcasts they're the 926 00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:08,230 most popular podcast out there now is 927 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:11,980 the Joe Rogan podcast which is two and a 928 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:14,410 half to three hours long per episode and 929 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:16,690 it comes out sometimes every couple of 930 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:18,250 days and you still get people listening 931 00:46:22,890 --> 00:46:20,410 to that really I guess because it's like 932 00:46:25,130 --> 00:46:22,900 listening to the radio you just get this 933 00:46:28,890 --> 00:46:25,140 long stream-of-consciousness thing like 934 00:46:31,830 --> 00:46:28,900 so I think he maybe will get a bit more 935 00:46:33,210 --> 00:46:31,840 diversity in terms of what's available 936 00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:33,220 to people there but you're right you 937 00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:35,230 know definitely there are a lot of 938 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:37,720 people like truckers and people working 939 00:46:43,130 --> 00:46:40,290 in shops who will just have the radio 940 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:43,140 you know I liked work what was said in 941 00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,770 the documentary about when you're 942 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:48,480 listening to someone on the radio you're 943 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:51,810 typically alone and form is almost like 944 00:46:56,690 --> 00:46:54,930 a personal relationship with this person 945 00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:56,700 like Rush Limbaugh that you feel like 946 00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,560 you know him and you get that to with 947 00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:00,240 the podcasts as well a lot of people 948 00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:01,910 like to feel like they have a personal 949 00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:04,500 relation with whatever the podcast is 950 00:47:11,060 --> 00:47:08,400 there's a nice name - yeah it's an 951 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:11,070 intimacy there you know they've become 952 00:47:17,330 --> 00:47:14,310 your friends and they they know they 953 00:47:21,830 --> 00:47:17,340 they act like they're your friend as 954 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:21,840 well you know even having my friend and 955 00:47:28,070 --> 00:47:25,410 hey you understand me you know you you 956 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:28,080 you you get what's going on you know 957 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:30,090 you're you know that kind of thing like 958 00:47:35,450 --> 00:47:32,370 flattering them so they feel like 959 00:47:39,170 --> 00:47:35,460 they're part of that like in-group yeah 960 00:47:40,850 --> 00:47:39,180 the dish were heads Rush Limbaugh's fans 961 00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:40,860 being called detail heads and just 962 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:44,310 saying dude so it's like the part of you 963 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:47,250 know I didn't say a colds but there's an 964 00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:49,890 aspect of that there's a charismatic 965 00:47:54,980 --> 00:47:53,070 leader people having unquestioning 966 00:47:58,490 --> 00:47:54,990 following but you know just with regular 967 00:47:59,990 --> 00:47:58,500 podcast like my wife listens to was it 968 00:48:04,220 --> 00:48:00,000 called my favorite murder which is a 969 00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:04,230 popular true crime podcast and you you 970 00:48:09,110 --> 00:48:06,720 get to feel what's the people you're 971 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:09,120 listening to or like your friends yeah 972 00:48:13,970 --> 00:48:11,010 because you know you just listened to 973 00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:13,980 them week after week and you recognize 974 00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:15,600 their voices and what they're thinking 975 00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:17,760 and it becomes a very powerful medium 976 00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:20,640 for communication and persuasion a lot 977 00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:22,380 of people say that Joe Rogan is one of 978 00:48:27,220 --> 00:48:24,960 the more powerful men in America because 979 00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:27,230 he he has an audience of millions and 980 00:48:39,170 --> 00:48:31,680 his peace ways people you see you know 981 00:48:41,150 --> 00:48:39,180 right wing is not really he's I mean he 982 00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:41,160 kind of distracted described himself as 983 00:48:48,310 --> 00:48:43,710 a somewhat socialist but he has kind of 984 00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:48,320 what people might call no old-fashioned 985 00:48:53,090 --> 00:48:51,240 beliefs about some things but he's 986 00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:53,100 actually a fairly progressive person 987 00:48:55,820 --> 00:48:53,700 with 988 00:48:57,890 --> 00:48:55,830 he also has a lot of guests on who are a 989 00:49:01,580 --> 00:48:57,900 bit less than progressive like Jordan 990 00:49:04,370 --> 00:49:01,590 Peters Jordan Peterson who is a kind of 991 00:49:07,610 --> 00:49:04,380 an intellectual guy who is kind of 992 00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:07,620 right-wing and has a variety of strange 993 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:09,990 beliefs but anyway Joe Rogan is an 994 00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:11,610 influencer in a big way 995 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:13,710 yeah not simply in the way that the 996 00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:18,050 Kardashians yeah people an instagramer 997 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:20,250 influences but he actually people listen 998 00:49:27,830 --> 00:49:23,130 to what he says yeah you know quite 999 00:49:30,980 --> 00:49:27,840 hopeful that just the ability of anybody 1000 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:30,990 to say things on podcasts won't just be 1001 00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:32,730 one-sided like it was with with 1002 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:35,310 conservative talk radio you know that's 1003 00:49:40,730 --> 00:49:38,090 quite an amazing ya statistic just how 1004 00:49:42,830 --> 00:49:40,740 how much of talk radio was conservative 1005 00:49:45,890 --> 00:49:42,840 it was like 97 percent or something like 1006 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:45,900 that yeah seven percent yeah yeah and 1007 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:49,290 you think that that was like part of the 1008 00:49:57,740 --> 00:49:54,450 vast right-wing conspiracy yes you know 1009 00:50:00,320 --> 00:49:57,750 there was a lot of money behind it you 1010 00:50:03,830 --> 00:50:00,330 know like the Heritage Foundation giving 1011 00:50:07,070 --> 00:50:03,840 them ball lots of money it's they wanted 1012 00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:07,080 to make sure no according to the Lewis 1013 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:09,060 Powell memo that all these things were 1014 00:50:15,170 --> 00:50:11,970 really well funded but also I'm sure 1015 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:15,180 then that some just saw hey I can make a 1016 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:18,210 buck on on this I can jump on the 1017 00:50:24,010 --> 00:50:20,970 bandwagon ya know it they have to be 1018 00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:24,020 really well funded and they are yeah 1019 00:50:28,820 --> 00:50:26,160 alright well this has been a fascinating 1020 00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:28,830 discussion coming up on an hour now so 1021 00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:32,910 I'm gonna thank you very much people can 1022 00:50:37,850 --> 00:50:34,710 see your documentary it's on a variety 1023 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:37,860 of outlets I saw it on Amazon and it's 1024 00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:39,810 on I guess he can just go to your 1025 00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:42,180 website yeah they can go to the website 1026 00:50:45,050 --> 00:50:44,460 and see all the places or it can be 1027 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:45,060 watched 1028 00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:48,810 you know streaming or well yeah who do i 1029 00:50:53,630 --> 00:50:51,960 twos unnumbered places yeah and you just 1030 00:50:55,340 --> 00:50:53,640 type brainwash you got my dad into 1031 00:50:57,470 --> 00:50:55,350 Google and it will your website just 1032 00:51:00,440 --> 00:50:57,480 pops right up do you know anything else 1033 00:51:03,110 --> 00:51:00,450 you want to ask oh yes I'm reading a 1034 00:51:05,810 --> 00:51:03,120 book that's alright it's sort of a 1035 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:05,820 companion book to the movie not sure of 1036 00:51:09,870 --> 00:51:07,210 the title yet 1037 00:51:12,990 --> 00:51:09,880 playing with that but hopefully it'll 1038 00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:13,000 come out before the election so you know 1039 00:51:18,599 --> 00:51:15,580 for anybody that wants to learn more 1040 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:18,609 it'll be in the book great that sounds